When Art Meets Algorithm - AI and the Creative Journey

[Future Factory Host: Anthony Amunategui] Welcome back to the podcast. You know, today we’re going to talk about AI and the triggers that we all have. We’ve got one of the world’s leading experts in brand development and creative design. Paul Wolski is with us, and he’s with Miller Zell, and he’s the VP of creative director over there. And it’s exciting to have him on, and Paul, I met him at a convention. He was leading a conference. He’s a speaker and great engagement. 

He’s going to have some things that really will trigger you. So stick around and enjoy this. Paul, welcome to the show. 

[Paul Wolski, SVP, Creative Director, Miller Zell] Thank you, Anthony. Happy to be here. 

[AA] So, is AI going to take over our jobs? 

[PW] Okay, we’re just charging out of the gate with that one.

[AA] I’m going to go at it for you. It’s taken over. 

[PW] No pressure. Okay, so I think it depends on the area within which you work. And you know, if we’re talking about retail, I think there’s certainly cause for concern that… that over time, we could see AI assume certain roles. But as a designer leading a creative team, I’m not so sure what that looks like right now.

So, is AI going to take my job anytime soon, or those on my team? I would say not in the near future.

[AA] You know, you pose a really interesting question as you and your team are looking at AI. And certainly, all of us have been impressed with what ChatGPTs are doing and what OpenAI is doing. But those are really great skills and letters and, for sure, there’s an amazement in the growth in the last 24 months of their development. And so you kind of looked at it with your team. And I thought there was an interesting way of looking at… looking internally at your team and where… kind of where you guys are. 

I’d like you to talk to the audience about it because I think it’s something that applies to all organizations, and a great way for us to look at it together to kind of address the concerns.

[PW] Yeah, I mean, I mean, let’s face it, for decades we’ve been living with AI. It’s been a part of our lives. But really, as you said, within the last year and a half, two years, it just feels like it kind of burst out from behind the curtain and it’s landed center stage to dominate conversations around creativity and design. 

And it’s kind of sending shockwaves through creative communities. It’s challenging the very definition of what it means to be creative. So I wanted to take the temperature of my team to understand what our AI awareness spectrum looked like. 

So, I pulled the team together, and a show of hands revealed a range of reactions and understanding. I had some designers with little awareness about AI, others who were already kind of dabbling with it on their own time. And then others were legitimately concerned about “what this means for my job in the future.” So, I thought, okay, with that range of perception and to be honest, degrees of ignorance, I was like, okay, we need to level set. And if we’re going to confront AI, just to simply understand its place at the design table, we need to confront it and demystify it and try to get our arms around it rather than keeping it at arm’s length. Because I think that would just do us more harm than good in the long run.

“[AI] is challenging the very definition of what it means to be creative.”

Paul Wolski, SVP, Creative Director

 

So, I created… we created some internal exercises so that we could do that very thing, kind of interact with AI and understand what it would mean for our roles here. So the first one was just an internal exercise. I asked everyone to participate. You know, my team is made up of graphic designers and interior environment designers, motion graphics, production art; everybody participated. And I had everybody use an AI platform and created a simple brief where I asked them to enter three mandatory prompts. You know, their favorite destination, their favorite color and their favorite artist or artistic movement. Beyond that, they could add anything else to personalize it to make it their own. 

And the images that I received were stunning. They were beautiful. And I think, I think, much to everyone’s surprise, even my more reluctant designers kind of really got into the exercise. And the collaboration that it created among the team, designers started to help each other and coach each other. And having breakthroughs with prompting to kind of yield better results. And I loved seeing that kind of bonding experience that was coming out of something that I think was regarded with a little bit of apprehension. So, to actually kind of mark and even celebrate what I felt was a collective hurdle we jumped, I took all of their images, and we had them printed in our graphic center here on eight-by-eight-inch tiles that we displayed in our building here. It’s an AI. It’s a physical AI gallery of everyone’s tiles on the wall. And it’s actually become a great part of our storytelling when we conduct building tours because we have a… we work with a lot of different retail categories, a lot of different clients, all of whom are on some level grappling with AI and seeing an example of kind of an icebreaker exercise I think has inspired them and given them a fresh way to think about AI. “Okay, this is an interesting way to on-ramp AI into our respective teams.” So, that was just one example of a way we were able to kind of disarm the whole kind of… the whole topic around.

[AA] Well, I mean, I mean, ultimately, it’s the fear of it that stops us, right? There’s this… this thing AI and they’re shut down and what I love is that you guys played with that, right? You kind of played with and took the group down to the playground and said, “Look, let’s just, let’s just break the ice. Let’s go look at it and go, all right, if we didn’t just discount it and not look over there, like it’s not there, like I’m not looking, I’m not looking, I’m not looking, I’m not looking, right?” You guys said, “No, no, we’re… let’s go look at it. Let’s go, let’s go play with it. Let’s, let’s engage it into our world like a gift that they could, that can be.” And now, all of a sudden, from there it demystifies some of it, right? 

How many people were surprised by what it could… it could do?

[PW] Well, I think, I think everybody enjoyed the exercise. I think they did realize that the quality of the output was entirely dependent on the quality of their input. So, I think for anybody who thought that AI was kind of a touch of the button, automated exercises realized like… no, they do play a role in kind of shaping the outcome. You know, I had, I had some designers who participated in the exercise, and they’re like, okay, here’s my image — that was fun. I’m going to go back to what I like to do. And I was like, okay, I hear you. But then I had others who really took to AI and over time have really become avid learners. You know, I think the exercise emboldened some of my designers to think about ways AI could integrate into certain processes.

I mean, one of the easiest ways to do so is image editing. I mean, that’s the thing, AI is just so accessible. It’s everywhere. It’s on every interface. So the invitation to kind of bring it in is always present. But I think that exercise, again, brought down certain fences where designers are using it for image enhancement, up-resing, photo retouching, all kinds of things like that. So, on some levels, it’s being used for brainstorming ideation. I mean, much in the way you’ll have designers look to all kinds of resources for inspiration. This is just another way to do so. You know, as far as it being kind of a driving force kind of, I think we conducted another exercise where we wanted to see what would happen if we kind of put AI in the driver’s seat, so to speak, and let it guide a process.

We came up with a brief for a fictitious retailer we came up with. Just to… again I think giving ourselves the runway and the permission to play with this also removed some of the pressures around let’s be imperfect. Let’s get messy. Let’s get in the dirt and see what happens. So we came up with a kind of fictitious retailer to develop concepts for like a dramatic store entry for like a specialty high-end gift retailer. And I think it was interesting. 

 

“We conducted another exercise where we wanted to see what would happen if we kind of put AI in the driver’s seat, so to speak, and let it guide a process.”

Paul Wolski, SVP, Creative Director

 

One of the mandatories set in the brief is that you had to use AI as your sole concepting tool. I wanted to remove any familiar go-tos, creature comforts, all gone. Let’s all jump into the cold water together and kind of just experience the shock of this. 

So it’s funny, again, at varying levels, I had designers a little resistant, digging in their heels. I think in terms of how it affected the process or influenced the process that was jamming people’s radar. The results were wild, well, they were kind of outlandish and impractical. There’s AI swinging wild. You don’t really know what you’re going to get despite best efforts. And I think I had some designers expressing frustration around the degree of prompting. They’re like, “I’m a designer.” This isn’t how I create. But all I’m doing is I’m sitting in front of my screen and I’m typing. I’m editing. I’m moving paragraphs. I’m playing with syntax. “I’m reading tutorials on how to….” They’re like, I’m not a writer. I’m a designer. And I thought that was kind of an interesting kind of expression of what was coming out of this. But again, it was a little clumsy by admission. But I think that was also just part of the… that was the purpose of it, too, is just to see where it went out. And more importantly, it was all the takeaways, the lessons we learned about. 

I mean, I think everybody knows this out. You know, AI is really, it’s not the star. It’s a supporting player. And I think it was important for us to realize, okay, AI is something that, as we learn how to wield it, we really need to understand how it kind of bakes into our existing process. It can’t be the process, if that makes sense.

[AA] Yes, I just saw a college professor talking about how kids are all using AI. And we spent all this energy over the last 18 months trying to figure out if they’re using AI and scold them for it. And the professor was saying, “No, what we’re doing now is we’re going to allow me to use AI.” But now we’ve upped the ante on expectations. Right now, it’s not the monotonous work of the… tedious work of all the multimodal stuff you have to do to go start creating concepts. You know, AI kind of gives you some chances to go that way. Now, like you, I had a really hard time with that prompting stuff. It would just be hours of typing.

But what happened to me just in the last few months is I’ve now created one I can talk to; I call her Zoe. And Zoe and I have these great conversations… we have these great conversations in that, and Zoe can help me go through writing letters or putting plans together or schedules. And it was a big differentiating factor from the… because I’m a really terrible speller. And it just slows things down. And all of a sudden, they increased it where I can now speak to my AI, and dramatically different was my ability to have the output on that. And you know, to that point where it just gave me… it got me to a starting point, right? Faster, right? All the stuff had to go, all the data I’d have to go collect to get to a starting point.

[PW] Right.

[AA] Now I’ve got to that starting point. And I think that’s kind of what you’re talking about right now. You’re able to get to that. And from there, you do what you guys do, which is that human piece part that really does make Miller Zell that differentiating factor — you guys have got the peak environmental experience for the retailers. 

[PW] Exactly. I think we realized a helpful catalyst. But exactly, I think it’s still really important to remember that it takes us to kind of serve as the gut check when it comes to developing concepts or solutions that… that are right for whatever brand we’re working on. Is the tone of voice right? Does it feel right? Does it look right? So AI can generate all kinds of recommendations and solutions, but ultimately you need… you need somebody to kind of hone it and craft it. 

Now I know that just exponentially AI is continuing to teach itself, and in that… that level of kind of iteration is just so rapid right now. Who knows what my story will be in a couple of years, but I think right now, you know, as I said, giving ourselves the permission to kind of play with it helps settle things down. And now everybody kind of has some solid footing in terms of, okay, I understand its capabilities, but no one’s being overtly resistant, but I think we just realized it’s there at our disposal. 

You know, I realize when it comes to design, it’s kind of a different category altogether because you and I were talking about there are other facets of retail kind of planning and execution where I think you have… you have kind of hard-line tactical areas where AI could kind of penetrate much faster and you could see much deeper kind of systemic change take place. 

But you know, design is there… are aspects to design that are there are still a little idiosyncratic and interpretive, and I’m not sure AI is quite there to kind of take that from us.

[AA] How many people on your staff were — and I have those on my staff — people who are like, hey, this isn’t going to affect me. I’m going to retire before I get there, right? They’re trying to out-run AI.

[PW] Right. You know, I don’t know, I don’t know, I don’t know if I encountered anybody with that… with that kind of mindset, but I think you do touch on something interesting around just one’s regard or attitude toward… I think anytime tech kind of pushes through in a way that that can feel somewhat aggressive. I mean, I think… I think we witnessed these other shades of this in the past where something happens technologically and the ripple effect just induces degrees of this angst or panic, and it’s like, “Oh my god, I already feel like I’m behind the curve.” And I think AI is doing that times 10 just because it’s just advancing every, every article is talking about like how in leaps and bounds, it’s just kind of taking us into hyperdrive. 

But I think it’s important for companies or teams to acknowledge as I said before, like an awareness spectrum like I’m, I’m a Gen X late adopter, I own it, I lean into it, I know how I’m hardwired. I, I’m not a digital native. So it takes me a minute to warm up to technology. And I like to get a sense, I like technology to settle in, to see where it’s going. And in a lot of people, I think, share that attitude. And I think when you work in companies of this size, you’re going to see that spectrum of late adopters and early adopters in that space in between.

So, what does your learning curve look like as a company? You know, you have to be really clear on how to bring this topic to the table. Are you going to be met with folded arms in resistance? Or do you try to set the table in a way to have people approach it with some degree of open-mindedness? You know, so I think that’s critical. I think, I think the cultural conversations that need to take place within organizations... that’s going to be key to how you prepare for this, because it’s not an issue of if, it’s when. I mean, it’s abundantly clear. So, you know, you can, you can stick your head in the sand or personal opinions aside, just go, okay, this is entering the mix. So we ultimately need to know how to wield it to the best of our ability.

[AA] Well, I think that’s what’s funny about the breakout session I was in with you, right? Your approach to me was so refreshing in that you weren’t trying to pretend like you had it all figured out. And that to me is a great spot to be in, right? Is that just being aware of where we actually are, right? And I think that’s what’s kind of key about you and your ability to speak to groups is that you’re sharing that experience with them… that it’s okay not to have it all figured out. You’re, you’re, there’s nothing wrong with you. None of us [knows.] 

I speak in groups. I was in front of the Young Presidents Association for construction the other day. And every one of those, every, every one of those people are in the same, they’re all cats chasing a laser pointer, like, okay, what am I supposed to do here? And there’s a lot of real concern and just no one wants to get behind. We all realize there’s some, some gift to it. We just have to figure out how to use this. But I think where you were was such a… just such a calming space to go, all right, we don’t have it figured out. We’re noticing our anxiety or angst. And now what, now let’s just play some games with it. And that opened up a dialogue between your group that I think the… the ramp of that projection that gives you something that most people can’t see the value in, it at least gives you a place to start from. 

[PW] Right, right. And I mean, there are certainly so many ways to integrate AI and if we’re talking about retail and customer experience, customer engagement, you know there are faster routes to integrate digital into dynamic digital content to activate merchandising displays and kind of incorporating how many channel interactions, so that you’re getting that kind of seamless experience from device to in-store. You know, a lot of what my team does is dealing with spatial environments. So there’s a mixture of spatial planning, retail communications just branded décor. 

 

“You guys are the industry standard for creating spaces for great brands.”
Anthony Amunategui, Future Factory Podcast

 

So, again, that’s why from our perspective, it’s kind of difficult to kind of view what we do in total. And again, touching so many different clients and so many different types of projects. I don’t think we’re kind of going, oh boy, it’s gonna take this facet over; that’s not how we’re viewing it. I think we’re too multi-layered in a way as a team; we’re not, we’re not a singular retail, or part, we’re not a singular retailer or brand dealing with like a network of stores. We’re dealing with numerous clients, all of whom have different challenges. So, I think the way we dial in and out of that type of work… it’s just our landscapes are a little bit different.

[AA] Well, there’s also some stuff that I think you should look at. I was with some architects last week, and we started talking. All right, look, how does AI support us, right? I mean, as we start to look at digital design, does the architect, does AI become the architect? And they’re like, well, first of all, they don’t hold licenses and there’s some other stuff that can be concerning, but could it take some of the weight off of the work that we have to do… the details, the little parts and pieces, or even one of the ones I didn’t even think about. It was something kind of fun that they could bring products that we don’t normally look at from around the world, right? Product availability. You could see a day where it gives us stuff that… tools and techniques that I didn’t see before, right? It can pull from things around the world. 

And then on the backside, once it’s designed, accessibility and purchasing and coordination, all of that becomes something that really becomes part of the other side of what you guys do, right? You guys, not only do you design these, I mean, you guys are the industry standard for creating spaces for great brands. I mean, you guys, when it comes to great brands across this country, Miller Zell is really the brand that does that. But now, how does that become the helper in what you do? 

[PW] Well, sure. And I think that’s where everyone needs to recognize that. I mean, I know that there are countless opinions and articles about AI taking over roles, but there is going to be a period of time where AI is that kind of additive engine… that additive capability that we need to learn how to bring into the mix. And again, I think there are just so many ways that kind of behind-the-curtain or more overtly, the role AI is going to play is going to change everything. And just the degree to which we have to stay up, like the rapid rate of change in retail, is kind of demanding this level of quick response. And AI is certainly there to kind of facilitate that, right? 

[AA] Yeah, we were doing some, like, trying to get really crazy with prompting the other day on demographic modeling, right, from the real estate team. And we were playing with an AI model and stuff that we couldn’t even imagine where demographic models will go in the future. I mean, 10,000x what we are today, and we have stuff about weather patterns and urban growth and population density and like being able to see the stuff multiplied out, right? You know, our human brains just can’t… just it’s just too much to comprehend or too much to calculate at that point. But there were some of the prompts that were just fun to do. And as it becomes about what you did, which was amazing, is that you’ve got to find a place to start with your group to play. If the resistance is, I’m not playing with it, right? I’m not going to bring it in here. There’s no, there’s no option later on it. 

The real gift is those who start today playing even — I’m not saying jump all in because I’m with you. I’m jumping all in, maybe a big distraction that’s not going to be very profitable for most of us yet, right? I mean, maybe one day it will be, but today we still have to bread and butter and feed our families and get product… products out of the door, dreaming about what it’s going to do. Great. But today we’ve got to get projects out, right? So, at least you start at a place where, all right, if we start to play around with this, and we can notice, all right, maybe it gives us more creative options. Maybe it’s in the way that we purchase some things. Look, what happens in the play really starts the… it starts the opportunities, right? The things that you couldn’t see without playing.

[PW] I think you’re right. And I think, I think the window to do that is now. I mean, again, this is all still relatively new. You know, we weren’t talking about, we weren’t talking like this two years ago. So, I think and also kind of coming to terms with your personal position on it too, like it’s easy for me to have a personal take on AI. I was talking with you before outside of work — I’m a lifelong artist. I’m an illustrator. I love to write; I still love pencil on paper. So my relationship and reaction to AI on a personal level is different than the mindset I need to adopt here at work, and I think trying to reconcile that is an interesting place to be right now. I think, again, specifically talking about creatives or designers, I think everyone is struggling to walk this line.  

But yeah, now is the time to try to figure out how to… how to on-ramp it. 

 [AA] My wife is an attorney. I’m like, are you using chat? She’s just “I’ll never, no way, I write my own briefs.” And I… this is the skill and you’re gonna make brain rot with all you people using that and I’m like, I get it because she has a great job. She writes… her writing is what’s one of her magical gifts. And all of a sudden, there’s this feeling that I’m not giving that up to an AI.

[PW] Yeah again, I know, I don’t know if it’s apples to apples, but you know, think about something like desktop publishing — what a seismic kind of shift that was where the whole industry around pre-press production was turned upside down. And you know, we go through these movements where technology does this and we have to kind of allow things to settle down to understand how it makes sense for us. So this AI and inevitability, when it comes to retail? Absolutely, but I think everybody just needs to take a breath. You know, no one’s moving at exactly the same pace right now. If anything, I think everyone is… I think everyone’s awareness is super heightened because it’s in the media all the time. But now I think it’s that transition from awareness to action that you’re kind of touching on — now it’s about the time to work with it. Time to figure it out.

 

“We go through these movements where technology does this, and we have to kind of allow things to settle down to understand how it makes sense for us.”

Paul Wolski, SVP, Creative Director

 

[AA] Well, without playing the game that you played, how much longer will it take your team to get there? I mean, what’s great about what you did? And I think that’s when the gifts of you speaking to the companies that you speak to are giving them that gift of going, hey, let’s not force feed you in this. Let’s just get to a place of awareness, right? Your processes that you’ve created to get your team there, I think, are great for all the teams… for teams across this country, right? Having you come into an organization and talk to them about this, I think it’s an opportunity, and it’s a great way of doing it. And it takes... maybe even I’m not sure alleviates all the resistance, but at least it… just I can look at it from a spot.

I got called out at a conference for like 300 people. And they were talking about AI and construction, like, are you crazy? Our business is like no way you can ever have AI. And the guy called me out; we’re in front of 300 people. He calls me on… goes, you’re a taxi driver. I go, what? I go, what? He goes, yeah, yeah, you’re one of those guys that own a shield. And you don’t want to become an Uber driver. Yeah, I was like, when he said that to me, I’m like, all right, all right, how could I be, how could that be true, somewhat? And then from there, it’s been this kind of unwinding of it going — maybe that’s some of my resistance. And I think that’s what your process does, right? That’s where the gift of you as a leader is to get aware of your people and help other companies become aware of maybe where that resistance is.

[PW] Yeah, and I think simply by just sharing our story, honestly, I think I’ve had some folks come up to me after I’ve talked about this at conferences, and they said what you’re sharing, what you’re relating really hits home. I’m dealing with this as it relates to my team, or we’re all scratching our heads, not knowing how to come at this. So I think part of it is just being honest — that we’re all figuring it out. I think, again, going back to how do you kind of crack open this topic within your organization? I think it’s important to pull the right stakeholders together. You know, [Miller Zell] formed a steering committee here about a year and a half ago, because we wanted to get in front of this and not chase after it. 

 

“I think part of [this process] is just being honest that we’re all figuring it out.”

Paul Wolski, SVP, Creative Director

 

I think that would be the biggest mistake to make is to kind of sit on their hands and not be aware of it and, again, not be prompted to start taking some level of action. But by creating that, we were able to kind of research and vet out the right kinds of platforms that the committee felt were permissible to use here. And again, it’s still very much a framework, but at least it’s set up some sense of a framework around which we can develop practices, protocols and, again, understand where and how do we dial this in. We’re a rather… we’re a sizable company, and we have a lot of disciplines under one roof. So we can’t all kind of charge out of the gate running down different paths, trying our own thing. I don’t think that’s the smartest way to come at this, but you know, I think if organizations can kind of get together and talk about it in a way where you could start to roadmap, set up, I don’t know, milestones of some sort, to make sense of this. I think that could also kind of tamp down anxiety.  

[AA] Well, I’ve got to tell you something — you are a gift. You know, we’re going through that breakout session with you with something amazing. You know, Paul, if people want to bring you into their organization and speak to their group and help start this kind of idea, this creating a path for AI, and just kind of doing a systems check for their group, what is the best way for them to get a hold of you?

[PW] You know, you could reach out to me. You know, I have my Miller Zell email address. I’m on LinkedIn. So happy to connect with anybody who is interested in wanting to learn more about the specifics around those exercises. 

[AA] So, yeah. I’ll put all that down below. I’ll put all the links to Paul. So, if you guys want to get a hold of Paul and have him come in and talk to your group or your conference or whatever you’re working on, believe me, it was one of the most enlightening spaces to be in. 

It was like this real, open, honest conversation about what’s going on. And when I could see that, it was like, I have to have them on the podcast because it’s the first time I saw a speaker speak vulnerably about the experience of going through [AI] as a group. And I think that that’s something that would be helpful for you and your group. And it was certainly for me, and bringing that back to our group was something that was just great. So, Paul, it was great to have you on the podcast. 

 [PW] Yeah, I’ve really enjoyed this conversation, Anthony. 

[AA] As we continue to unwind AI and where the world’s going, I’d love to have you on some more as you continue to break through with your organization. I’d love to have you on again sometime.

[PW] I’d love it. Thanks. 

[AA] Thanks. You know, hey, podcast guys, guests, thanks for being here. You know, last week we had 65,000 people on the website. We had over 4,000 downloads on the podcast. And we noticed a bunch of you guys… there were 40% of you that made the end of the podcast but weren’t subscribers.

If you could take a second and do that, the team works hard on finding amazing speakers, amazing guests like Paul, to come on board. And those numbers do make a difference, right? Having great numbers and subscribers makes a big difference. So, if you could do that now, we’d be completely grateful. And as always, thanks for listening.